In need of a new Apple computer!

Quote from Semigoodlooking

serafina - I haven't bought mine yet. I went in the Apple shop last month and came out with an iPhone 8 Plus for my daughter. I went in the iPoint in Unicenter this week and came out with an iPad Pro 10.5 for my son. I think I am doing it the wrong way and now I have to wait until the end of the year (probably) for my Mac.

Truth is I am in no big rush. Windows 10 is vital for me (I freelance for Microsoft), so I will be running Windows on the Mac anyway. Until I buy one I will make do with my Windows laptops.

My wife is All-Apple-All-The-Time, so when Cupertino says "buy this - it's good for you!" she trots off to the nearest iGrotto and plunks down her card. I'm not even sure if she asks the price - she has her orders, and they must be obeyed. Thus you're confirming my suspicions: you don't really get to choose your Apple products, you just go to iHeadquarters and they'll tell you what you need.

My computers, on the other hand, all run Win 10. And yes, I understand the difference: it's a tradeoff between Apple convenience (everything just works, because it's a well-engineered closed universe) and money and flexibility in the much-wider, more open, and considerably lower-priced Windows world.

We're both happy, and there's your good story ending.

Quote from Splinter

I had to repair two Macs recently and it was a bloody nightmare from beginning to end.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

Well, there you go. The intent in Cupertino is to keep all the money all the time. If repairs are needed, Apple wants a cut, so there are "authorized" dealers who toe the line, get the training, and pass the money.

In spite of what it may seem, I'm not anti-Apple. They do a superb job of what they do, and their customer base is loyal. I just personally have a problem volunteering to enter that world. To me, it's somewhat like taking up Scientology.

Serafina, hope you get what you need and you have my best wishes.

That's another thing about the world of Apple. One day they'll decide to upgrade a product and make all previous versions, hardware and software, obsolete. The customer is then required to buy a completely new system or be put in your position: "Sorry, that's Yesterday. We only work with Today." It's part of what it takes to be Apple, and as long as everyone's a volunteer and understands what comes with the territory, I certainly have no complaints.

I'm still using a couple of obsolete software products on my Win 10 PCs that I originally purchased fifteen or more years ago and have never found good, newer, replacements for. You just tell Windows 10 to analyze the old program and if it decides that it should run in a legacy shell (say, from Windows XP) it wraps it accordingly and you've still got the functionality you had in the year 1995. In terms of continuity for older programs there's no competition: Windows wins.

Quote from EJLarson

That's another thing about the world of Apple. One day they'll decide to upgrade a product and make all previous versions, hardware and software, obsolete. The customer is then required to buy a completely new system or be put in your position: "Sorry, that's Yesterday. We only work with Today." It's part of what it takes to be Apple, and as long as everyone's a volunteer and understands what comes with the territory, I certainly have no complaints.

FWIW, I'm use on a daily basis 2 Macs which I bought over 5 years ago, no problems whatsoever.

Quote from EJLarson

I'm still using a couple of obsolete software products on my Win 10 PCs that I originally purchased fifteen or more years ago and have never found good, newer, replacements for. You just tell Windows 10 to analyze the old program and if it decides that it should run in a legacy shell (say, from Windows XP) it wraps it accordingly and you've still got the functionality you had in the year 1995. In terms of continuity for older programs there's no competition: Windows wins.

Correct. You can argue that that is holding back Windows, because it has this massive amount of legacy baggage it still has to support.

And indeed, as MS gets more serious about a modern system they are getting more aggressive about dropping support for old stuff.

And there certainly do exist virtual machines for the Mac that emulate previous versions of OSX or even Windows. But they are sold separately - it is absolutely the case that Apple does not consider supporting 15 year-old software a high priority.

Quote from Splinter

The two that I repaired recently needed to be upgraded to High Sierra and one wouldn't upgrade because the versions of iPhoto and iMovie installed were incompatible and needed to be uninstalled, but with no hint as to why, bearing in mind that those are in fact Apple programs in the first place.

Never, ever heard of such a thing. Can you clarify precisely what was incompatible with what?

Quote from Splinter

My biggest problem with Apple products is the complete lack of 'road signs' to indicate why something won't happen as expected.

This is far less true if you're familiar with OSX's Unix underpinnings. It's usually a much more coherent system than poking semi-blindly around the Registry - once you're up to speed. There are simply less spaces for problems to lurk. But you'd need to know your way around.

If you've only ever driven in the US, you need some time to acquaint yourself with European signs. They're different. And that's even more true 'under the hood'.

Quote from Splinter

if you have the misfortune to need to reinstall OSX, always have another Mac handy in order to prepare the boot media as I've never had any luck with Transmac for Windows. And let's not even talk about the incompatible file systems.

Yes, just as a Mac will be of limited use if you need to reinstall Windows.

Then again, a Mac allows you to connect to wifi and download the entire OS - you don't need a second computer at all.

And yes, Apple cares less about compatibility (at least as far as boot media is concerned) today than in 1997. For obvious reasons.

Then again, the last time I had trouble moving files between a Windows machine and a Mac was a very long time ago.

Quote from ben

FWIW, I'm use on a daily basis 2 Macs which I bought over 5 years ago, no problems whatsoever.

Correct. You can argue that that is holding back Windows, because it has this massive amount of legacy baggage it still has to support.

And indeed, as MS gets more serious about a modern system they are getting more aggressive about dropping support for old stuff.

And there certainly do exist virtual machines for the Mac that emulate previous versions of OSX or even Windows. But they are sold separately - it is absolutely the case that Apple does not consider supporting 15 year-old software a high priority.

Never, ever heard of such a thing. Can you clarify precisely what was incompatible with what?

This is far less true if you're familiar with OSX's Unix underpinnings. It's usually a much more coherent system than poking semi-blindly around the Registry - once you're up to speed. There are simply less spaces for problems to lurk. But you'd need to know your way around.

If you've only ever driven in the US, you need some time to acquaint yourself with European signs. They're different. And that's even more true 'under the hood'.

Yes, just as a Mac will be of limited use if you need to reinstall Windows.

Then again, a Mac allows you to connect to wifi and download the entire OS - you don't need a second computer at all.

And yes, Apple cares less about compatibility (at least as far as boot media is concerned) today than in 1997. For obvious reasons.

Then again, the last time I had trouble moving files between a Windows machine and a Mac was a very long time ago.

Display More

It's been years since I've engaged in the Mac-Windows debate and have no intention of doing it now. (Note that in my comments above, I'm simply stating facts or opinions on my experience with the two systems: no bad/good claims.) The simplest way to put it is that Apple has designed a semi-open system and does not make it easy for the user to meddle with things. Corporate decision, neither bad or good.

MS has gone out of its way to make things accessible (not always easy to find, but usually easy to tweak once you're there) and has paid lots of attention to backward compatibility. In fairness to both systems, they both do their jobs, and both have improved over the years. One friend, who went Apple in 1984 with the first Mac, says about Win 10: "they finally got it right - almost as good as a Mac."

Everyone loves to hate the Registry. Could have been done better, but I'm sure you're aware that it does much much less than it did a few years ago, e.g., with XP? Most settings are now saved with the apps, just like OSX. Our favorite whipping boy is now just a ghost of its former loathsome self.

Ben, you're obviously on the OSX side of things. Have you used Win 10 enough to have formed a comparative opinion?

Quote from EJLarson

Everyone loves to hate the Registry. Could have been done better, but I'm sure you're aware that it does much much less than it did a few years ago, e.g., with XP? Most settings are now saved with the apps, just like OSX. Our favorite whipping boy is now just a ghost of its former loathsome self.

Ben, you're obviously on the OSX side of things. Have you used Win 10 enough to have formed a comparative opinion?

I actually haven't played much with Windows 10. I made the jump to Mac when it became clear that my next computer was going to be Windows 8, and that much of the knowledge I'd built up since DOS 5/Windows 3.0 was going to be irrelevant. From what I'm hearing, it sounds like if I'd have been looking at Win10 rather than 8, I many not have switched.

Equally true, though, is that had I been exposed to the Mac a little earlier in life, when I did have time to poke around with things, it would have been awesome. The potential it has with its scripting capabilities for a middle-to-high proficiency user (defined as: not limited to using the GUI, not afraid of Terminal, willing to learn how to script when needed, but not a full-time programmer), are way beyond what Windows offers (or offered: if Win10 brought something new to the party in this regard, please enlighten me).

Sadly, to get up to speed with this (say, AppleScript/Automator/Perl scripting), and make my workflow way smoother, I need time which at present I don't have. If I'd had a Mac to play with in, say, 2006, it'd be a different story.

P.S. If the Registry has been neutered, that is great. That many gripes less.

In my opinion, of all the screwups Microsoft has ever made, Windows 8 was the worst. How many customers like yourself did they alienate? Maybe millions. The irony and tragedy was that it was a good operating system - after all, it was the son of Windows 7, the best one to that time. The absolutely tone-deaf, brain-dead decision to put that stupid GUI on top of it cost Microsoft untold grief.

Those of us who were a bit more sophisticated than the general crowd (and weren't going to switch to Apple) found the answer immediately in a humble little app - free to boot! - called Classic Windows Shell/Classic Windows Desktop. It restores the Win 7 GUI completely, and lets us enjoy the improved OS but with our favorite GUI. Best of all worlds restored. Even though 10's native desktop's not bad, I still use it because the 7 experience was the best. Of course we shouldn't have to do that, but it's free and painless.

Windows 10 is solid, secure, and enormously flexible. These are not fanboy comments - I've passionately hated several of the MS blunders (e.g., Millenium Edition, Vista, Windows 8 ) and have cursed Redmond and all its works on those occasions. Only my multi-decade investment in knowledge and equipment kept me in the camp. So for me, Windows 10 is not just another OS upgrade - it's the resurrection of a product that we feared had lost its soul.

PS

Sorry, Serafina. Seems I hijacked your post. Good luck with your new Mac!

Quote from serafina

I believe the mistake with Windows 8 was that they wanted to make it dumb-proof. It was a OS which was designed to be intuitive, and a lot of laptop and tablets were launched during that time to counterattack the iPads dominance. Back then, it looked like a product geared toward the computer-analphabet kind of user, and the professional-advanced users felt mocked.

I did not upgrade to Win 8 when I had the chance to given the bad reviews. However, I was tempted to upgrade to Win 10, but I am running it on Parallels and it was extremely slow. The main software I use to translate, the dictionaries, and QA tool are all Windows-based. However, I don't mind paying a Parallels license -- it works very well.

The main reason I am hooked on Apple is my husband. He really hates Windows, whereas I couldn't care less as long as my computer works. However his constant campaigning against Windows forced me to switch to Apple. It was 2013, I believe, and I kept my old Sony Vaio for several months afterwards because it was just a beautiful machine with an excellent 17" screen. Of course it was a piece of plastic, but still... it was the first high-end laptop I had ever owned and I loved it.

Right now I don't thinkI would have a problem going back to Windows, but I have bought several Mac-only softwares (including my accounting software) and got used to Macs. It is just a matter of habits. Regardless of the OS, I always feel there is something easier with a system than with the other, however, if I am able to find a workaround or live without it, it is okay.

Display More

You are the sanest person in the room. Who gives a crap about the operating system? We don't boot our computers and marvel at what the OS can do! It's all about, and only about, what things we accomplish and the ease with which we do them. The first and last question that needs to be asked is "Does this computer allow me to do what I need to do with reasonable ease?" If "yes," then "and at a cost I'm willing to pay?"

Two yeses and the debate is over.

Everyone keeps referring back to a debate, it appears impossible to mention the words "Mac" and "Windows" without getting a little more ready for a fistfight than the minute before. But there's not much of a debate here!

Everyone here seems to agree that the days when Windows was a truly shitty operating system are over, at least post-Vista. As well, that having gone through the Vista debacle, Windows 8 was inexplicably stupid. And that Macs are by no means packets of pure goodness, they are opinionated products made by an opinionated company and not all users share the same opinions.

Me, having already made the switch (but retaining Parallels Desktop), I'm not in a hurry to return. The Mac delights in some ways and infuriates in others. As I said, if I had the depth of familiarity on that Mac that even approaches what I'd built up on Windows, I can confidently say I'd expect not to want go back to Windows for a long while. As of today, I'm not nearly as equipped to take advantage of Mac's strengths (e.g. the scripting/automation capabilities) as I might have been, though Stack Overflow et al are pretty good at solving many problems. So the question of which OS to use comes down in large degree to personal preference and a couple of other variables. Say, the integration with my other computers and my iPhone (AirDrop, Continuity, etc): I thought these were going to be gimmicks, ends up I use it all the time. Is it a game changer? Hardly. Does it grow on you, to the point I'd miss it if it was gone? Definitely.

It all comes down to what experience sucks less. For me, today, even with the above caveats, the Mac sucks less. Tomorrow? Who knows.

Quote from Splinter

How could I forget to mention that Windows is the perfect platform for gaming?

Yes. Say what you will about the Mac vs. Windows in just about every other context, but Windows always has the games.

I know how I could neglect to mention it - I never did much gaming.