Posts by Explorer

Since many of you commented on this: admittedly, I haven't traveled to many developing, (and to no 3rd tier) countries, beyond three in the Americas and several in E. Europe. Evidently, in any and most countries (except the Germanic/Nordic ones, still a different realm), the way from an airport to the city would be sided with all sorts of industrial or less than pretty places. It is the coarseness and primitive nature of those half-completed shacks and makeshift dwellings in AR that made an impression on me. I told about it also in the context of what I later saw elsewhere in the country - a significantly more rudimentary level of construction than I wished to see.

Very moving your mentions of your personal romance stories that brought you here, you guys. Again, I don't doubt that someone resourceful can find and sustain a fulfilling life in such ample country or in its vibrant capital city. For me, I don't have the time to rebuild one from the ground up.

I'm not religious and I wish you all a Happy Yule, or whatever you celebrate at the turning of the year!

Hi all - ok, I'll put a few details in writing. To Rice: I made a decision quickly because I've done significant research beforehand, and I'm well traveled to have a broad and clear comparison basis, my focus and area were narrowed done some, and because I feel so out of time now past my mid 50's. In a nutshell, and with notable exceptions, Argentina is more rudimentary than what I expected, both in the built and social environments. Yes, I'm perceptive and generalize or extrapolate quickly - I have to. Again, I wanted (and needed) to like it.

For the fun of it, let me just tell how flying over might give one some hints: people started lining up quite early (though orderly) at the gate and, in spite of Delta's repeated requests (not enforced) to check in the many extra bags, nobody did (my son and I had no more overhead space for our sole carry-on) - I saw this flying to certain E. European countries. What I didn't see was how, during the flight some people congregated for long chats; the loud one beside me prevented any snoozing. All this was somewhat expected and I told myself to take it as a socializing positive. (Same happened mornings, for long times, in front of our hotel room door, sleeping sign on, etc.) Since I'm at the social aspect here, I'd say that, on the average, Argentines appeared to me to be quite straight people, however. Whether more simple or relatively honest, is your take. While I did keep it to safe areas in BA, in smaller places such as Necochea, I felt safe overall.

Starting right from the airport (dismal venues for the bank cambio, car rental) the underwhelming experience started eroding my eager morale. The kind of neighborhoods of makeshift shacks and unfinished primitive construction siding the freeway toward the city, I've never seen live anywhere before. Traffic was ok. Got to the very central hotel on Montevideo w/o issues. Throughout, driving was a bit better than what I was prepared for, based on various posts. Fairly orderly, if you can adapt quickly to the absence of road markings and signs. For example, most cities (being relatively new, under 2-3 hundred years) have a rectangular road grid, with one way roads and no stop or yield signs; if 2 cars get to the intersection at, closely, the same time, it's priority for the one on the right. Otherwise, the first one there wins, sort of... By the way, I had to swallow my dislike of Google and used their maps (offline, prior downloaded), with a roaming data package for location. I only used like 30mb out of 2Gb.

The sidewalks in BA, even in the very Centro and in Palermo, were a disgrace, I must say. I liked the abundance of restaurants and cafes, which were more pricey than I thought. Some nice places, many rough around the edges. On the average, dishes were good, perhaps simple and served without much fuss, house wine around $3-5 per glass, charged for water, rather small and overpriced coffee cups, coarse quality pastries. Cambio houses (and they're no longer called cuevas) are not everywhere, as said. I had to walk for a long while to a specific street where, indeed, seemingly every other person you walked by would utter "cambio legal". Best rate we got was still under blue dollar, and USD50 bills are no longer on par with 100, for best rate. Banks seemed to retain about 8-10% for exchanging. Amazingly, they would not accept any bill with the tiniest mark on the edge. I ended up using mostly my US credit card and eat their rather high 6% or so conversion fee. I can confirm that local atm's charged like USD11 or so for any withdrawals - insane (yes, I canceled).

Hotels were fair value, perhaps less so as far as breakfast, which was generally cheap and unhealthy - not a trace of veggies, hardly any deli - sweets and sweets that could've lasted there for months. I saw many nice houses and apartment buildings and many poor ones. Street beggars galore. Very racially mixed populace, beyond my expectations (I do care about my kin to not disappear, as well as for my culture). I only got directly approached once, at the Boca stadium.

Mar del Plata was, perhaps, the bigger disappointment. Great setting, but surprisingly rudimentary, generally. Roads were ok and coastal nature was as nice as you could guess it from the maps and pictures. Perhaps a tad more rugged, with sudden weather changes, and a cliffy coast for a long way down south. I had established contact (not easy) with a local realtor and eventually saw a couple of houses in a good neighborhood near the beach, by my criteria, priced around 80-100k. Very poor value and living.

I drove south all the way to Claromeco - great beach, same roughness. What I like driving across the flat country (and you totally need cruise control on those crazy long straights) were the ranches with their gates and named overheads at the highway, front ending a long, tree-sided, shady way toward the ranch out there. Gas stations were fine, price ok USD1.2/L. Not as many potholes in the roads as said. Police controls every once in a while, for no reason.

I hope some of this info may help someone.

Ok, I'm here, for a few days now. BA for 3 days, MDP 2 days, now further South on the Atlantic Coast. To be brief, despite my best efforts and bias to like it, my experience and impressions are a solid notch below my expectations and made me realize that this is not a place for me. I wouldn't want to step on anyone's toes with details, as I can see how one could eventually find a niche and have a fulfilling life here, whether in BA or in a nice corner of the ample countryside, somewhere. I just thought to round up this thread.

Saludos cordiales!

Quote from UK Man

When we moved here permanently we got invites regularly from people we've rarely met since. They just wanted to have a good nosey at me. [...]

The locals will be over the moon to have you along. Even if like me, your Spanish is ruddy awful.

Thank you, although those two sentences seem to point to different ways. So, like elsewhere, they're all curious to check out the alien newcomer, then you're a done, old thing?

Ah... I was hoping at least this aspect would be clearly a plus. I know one should be careful generalizing, but some is needed.

Quote from Rice

Medical charges in the USA are outrageous. But with Medicare and Blue Cross/Blue Shield supplemental insurance, we pay high annual insurance fees, yes, but zero charge for office visits, surgery, or hospital stays. Explorer , what kind of insurance do you have?

Sorry for the late reply. "Zero charge for office visits, surgery, or hospital stays"? - maybe there's another US in the world that I don't know of. I'm on an average insurance plan from United Healthcare (largest in the country) through my wife's employer. Perhaps it has a lower premium. Not sure if even the primary care once-a-year checkups have no co-pay. Otherwise, any doctor is considered a "specialist" (i.e. they only know their narrow segment...) and the upfront copays vary $40-$80, I think - I haven't gone often as I'm wary of it. Then follows the bill, with the insurance covering a portion of it, unless you haven't paid up to your annual deductible - a few thousands - in which case you'd pay the entire bill out of pocket.

Any ER visit is $300 upfront, then after charges (last I know of was a few years back for my mother in law's few hours stay due to anemia - $3000 charge). Surgery or hospital charges quickly get into 5-digit figures. Perhaps you can lower them some with a high premium insurance and supplemental insurance, but to "zero"?

Dental, vision, pharma are additional insurance.

We lived in the US for 30 years in different places and I only recall visit costs getting more outrageous.

Do I understand it right that private healthcare insurance in Argentina is about USD250/person/month (pricey) but covers essentially everything?

Ok, guys, so I'm a week away from my trip over. I researched the housing situation in my coastal area of interest, which I narrowed to south of Mar del Plata, to Miramar or so. I'm thinking that north of MDP it gets too touristy in the summer. Anyway, I'm neutral on the housing factor. You don't seem to get great value for what the houses are, but neither ripped off. You can get a pretty good idea from the listings on Argenprop.com combined with satellite imagery. What surprised me is how undeveloped the coast is, with mostly rudimentary houses and dirt roads outside of the town center.

Still trying to assess the healthcare factor.

But, may I ask again for your opinions on the social factor? This would not be something I can assess in a short visit. Overall, how would you compare Argentina to the US and to western Europe in terms of people's privacy level, comfort zone, genuine friendliness, time for socializing? If you can think average town or city (perhaps excluding BA).

Here in the US there are various "groups" and "fun activities" you can join, but everybody keeps to their lives. This worn me down and, since I'm probably not a social butterfly, the social scene over there would be a big factor.

Thanks!

Quote from serafina

I woke up with an email from Hospital Italiano to let me know that they are raising their fee in November from 278 to 299 k pesos.

Let's call it USD $290 - is that your health insurance cost per month? I wonder if you have a "deductible" and a "copay" and "inpatient" fees and how much all those are.

Ordinary case: I went to the dermatologist the other day for a 15-minute visit (skin checkup). Bill in the mail: USD $1,100.

I'm self-employed. Despite other needs, I'm afraid to go to "doctors" here.

Quote from Rice

I’m curious: what kind of cell phone service to you have in the US for less than $15/month?

I have Tello, which is T-mobile's division that supposedly gets less customer service, though you can still "chat" with CS or call if needed. They blasted their way into the overpriced US market, with much better prices (I hope they last!) and better service. My entire family switched to them; 2 members have the regular T-mobile service, with phone deals, etc. I have my own phone and the straight Tello for about $11/month unlimited, calls/text to most countries, and something like 1-2 Gb fast data (which I never use much of, then unlimited slow). Hope this helps for comparing.

Quote from Splinter

We are with Swiss Medical and since we are over 60 our monthly payment, for both of us, is near US$600.

That's a lot of money to find each month.

So, about $300/person/month. Yes, that's significant. Shall I take it that would cover you almost entirely as far as co-pays, er, major care?

Quote from serafina

Right now, we are in an expensive moment. You pay first world price for third world product and services. This is why we are grumpy about it. Most of us were lured in during a dirty-cheap period, and are now grumpy about having to pay 2-3-4x for the same stuff that was once much less.

We are on month 10 of Milei’s presidency and he said that he will lift the cepo only when inflation will be 0%. Dream on!

Thanks - I have a good picture now of what's going on, at least in the BA area where you most seem to live. I'd think life down south (say Bahia Blanca as the example I used) is slower paced and less expensive, and perhaps safer overall (by the stats).

Regarding Milei, I don't know or follow much. I know more than I perhaps should know of who's mastering all puppets in the globalized world and I'm too hopeless for any change. But I happened to glance some headline at his post-election time to see what his first visits were, to no surprise. In theory, being hard on inflation would be a good thing - not sure if it's sheer populism there from his "government" - but, as you said, you've got to also have a plan for economic growth.

One other explanation I give myself on how Argentines afford "first-world" prices for goods is that most of them have relatively very low housing expenses. One can see this in many EU countries and US states, where people either live with the larger family, or in very modest housing, and put all their money into food, appearance, and car/transportation.

Quote from serafina

[...]

Yesterday, I visited Palermo Hollywood as there is a local bakery that sells nice cinnamon rolls for $800. I bought 4 to freeze, so that when I am in the urge for a sweet breakfast I can simply heat one up vs. going to the coffee place and buy a pain au chocolate for $3100. While I was there, I saw they had chocotorta by the portion. It was $5500. Delicious, but at 4,60 USD per portion, and this being in a local bakery, nothing fancy, I don't see myself buying it regularly.

[...]

Thank you for your elaboration (I didn't quote it all only to save space on the forum page). Well, $4 for a pint of beer, $4 for a cup of coffee, $4.60 for a casual dessert, $15+tip pizza for two, $1 for a liter of gasoline - these are like US prices in most places. Then mobile phone service at $15/month is more than I pay here (unlimited), and so is car insurance at the stunning $100/month (as I mentioned, I pay about $800/year/car with 3 cars). How can Argentines afford these type of prices, given their salaries? I'm thrown back into deep reluctance about my potential move.

Then, as I extrapolate your pricing to perhaps $130/month for a single person for health insurance, that is also significant and comparable to certain US plans, and I wonder what coverage it gives you. How much is your copay at "specialists" (i.e. any doctor other than your primary care / family doctor), and is there an annual "deductible" amount up to which you pay mostly everything out of pocket, and are you covered 100% for major care and/or ER.

Quote from Rice

Explorer , I’m not the best example for normal living expenses, since we are here only part of each year, so our housing costs are far higher per month than normal, and exceed the total monthly living budget you suggested. We live in the city and don’t have a car. We pay for medical expenses as needed, rather than having insurance.

[...]

What you can see from all of this is that the most important unknown factor is inflation. [...] With a fixed income, this could be a constant source of stress.

I'm not sure if I'm missing something, but your investment or other income is, or should be in $ and, relative to that, inflation is US inflation. Fixed income investments still erode your savings, since they generally yield less than what real inflation is, but slowly so.

The "source of stress" in my understanding would be the constant, daily cash management, including fees to pay for accessing your US-based (or other) account to withdraw cash, changing that cash at the "dolar blue" rate at whatever cambio house you consider, making sure (as I read about it) that bank notes are not damaged, forged, and of the right denominations, and nonetheless, walking around with cash in your pockets. You can probably streamline some of this but only to an extent.

Would you be able to share the on-need "medical expenses" you're seeing?

Quote from serafina

Why are you using the official rate?

Just to be conservative.

But, if using the "dolar blue" the food would seem relatively even less expensive there, which seems conflicting with what you all say that affordability is largely gone.

Quote from aficionado

Have you started to investigate how to live here with a valid visa for temporary or permanent residence? Tourist visa is for 3 months. A retirement (Pensionado) Visa or Rentista visa are common. There are others. I do not know the details, though I think you need to prove sufficient monthly funds. https://www.argentina.gob.ar/servicio/obten…como-pensionado

Quote from Bombonera

The relevant detail in that regard is:

“Constancia expedida por un gobierno, un organismo internacional o una empresa particular que certifique la percepción de una pensión o jubilación en forma regular y permanente, de un monto igual o superior a la suma de CINCO (5) Salarios Mínimo Vital y Móvil”

And I gather that is pointing towards USD 2000 presently

A straight internet search shows minimum wage in AR to be about $215/month. That would bring the above total, if so required indeed, to about $1250/month. Not sure where the $2k is coming from and it seems far off the costs and prices I see. It would also be a non-starter for me, regardless of how scenic and happening the country is.

I wasn't asking for the official requirements as much as for your own experience. What sort of budget, before housing, do you go by?

Yes, I looked at visas and permanent residence. I don't really have an issue with fulfilling the proof of funds. I'm trying to see for real if I can afford living there long-term, probably for my remaining lifetime, while maintaining a cushion. I just wish someone would be willing to share their costs first-hand - living, auto, healthcare. Thanks.

Very useful, thanks guys. My guess would've been close - the coast between BA and MDP would be busier, and more seasonally so, with better supplying of everything but also higher prices and higher risk of incidents, perhaps. I don't know what numbers does it draw in the summer but if it comes down to parked cars filling up your town's streets and people packing your food stores and restaurants - no thanks. I wonder if this goes all the way to BB or it gets rarefied before then. As I mentioned, I wouldn't go remote, but to some town where nature/ocean is untainted, while amenities are decent. My southern limit would theoretically be 45 min. or so south of BB. At 300k people, I'd think that city has much of the healthcare and other facilities one would normally need. Is that a reasonable expectation? That wouldn't be too far from BA for any overseas air travel, either.

Yes, a car is a must for me. It surprises me to hear that they're more expensive (in $) than in the US, and that it applies to insurance, too. Here I pay about $800/year/car for average insurance and you can get a good used car at $15k-25k. With the kind of wages the Argentines have, how would they afford more than that?

Quote from UK Man

Quote from Rice

Here is an ad from one of the supermarkets. It will give you an idea of prices so you can compare to what you pay in your city.

https://www.coto.com.ar/images/catalog…ndex_mobile.asp

Thank you for the supermarket link, though I'm not sure I can compare prices in a helpful way. Stores and prices vary anywhere, by products and quality and location, of course. I was wondering, ballpark, if $1,200 (before housing) would suffice as a monthly budget for an individual living in an average town or suburb.

But, if I should attempt a tiny comparison, taking the current rate of $1=971 ARS, and an unprocessed food such as the steak, it looks like it sells at about $6.5/kg, whereas here it averages about $20/kg I think.

I'm very thankful to have gotten your replies. Yes, it's the whole package - nature, society, safety, food, etc. - but, frankly, the cost of living (including healthcare) edges out all other factors; let's say it makes for 50% of the proposition. Otherwise the US is a large place with many beautiful areas, too, and so is Australia, and Europe in a much more special way. But I've never been interested in using up my lifetime to work to pay bills.

I hear you all being rather unhappy with the cost of living having gone up. Comparison sites that I've been looking at, such as this: https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living…ntry2=Argentina

put it roughly at half the US cost. What do you guys think that one can live on, before housing costs, somewhere outside a mid-sized city like Bahia Blanca, car included? USD 1200/month could do? I'm neither frugal nor a spender. Then healthcare is a huge unknown. Here in the US, should you get hit by a health condition, you're literally wiped out. Does your insurance cover you well for all situations over there?

My upcoming trip (beginning of December) would be short, but I could do a longer one a bit later, depending. As I said, I'm seeking coastal locations, such as a small town not too far from a city, and not too far south either. A house with ocean view - something completely out of reach here - would be my second most important criterion, on par with "safety". By the figures, nature and weather look good, but, as far as living and socializing, one needs to see it or draw from the experience of others. While I mean well to all, it's only natural that I take comfort in knowing that most people are of European descent, like me. Still, I cannot help wonder if locals in suburban environments would be no more than polite - hey, the way I am where I live!

Would much appreciate any takes on the budget and healthcare, too.

Hi all -

To live or not to live in Argentina - the question you guys only heard about 1000 times. My angle is that, having perused this forum and other information and reading between the lines, I went from an 85% conviction to move to Argentina, to a 2% one.

I'm writing with some remaining hope to be proven wrong.

From the initial, promising picture of a beautiful country, with half the living costs of the US, good food and dining, good infrastructure and healthcare, comparable safety to the US (there are many urban areas to stay away from here, too), the only thing that hasn't changed about Argentina is "beautiful country". I'm old and traveled enough to have imagined that the country would be rough around the edges, that big cities have unsafe areas, that services are slow and that financials may pose challenges. But the reality that seeps through is one of significant personal-safety issues, of living costs that have risen on a relative basis, and of a food scene that leaves some to be desired, with average (or even poorly supplied) grocery stores and a limited or pricey dining experience. Furthermore, cash management appears to be demanding on a daily basis. All together, with safety in particular, and given the relocation effort, language curve and social reset, have nearly cancelled the proposition for me. I still believe there are beautiful, livable small towns and I look forward to visiting some in my upcoming first trip over (my intent had been to settle in a coastal city or town, such as Bahia or Necochea). But even there, it seems that, while safety would be better, the other challenges would remain, along with some social isolation.

I don't mean to offend any expats with this. You might very well have it better there than us here in the US (where healthcare costs are obscene, inner cities are rough, and you can potentially get sued at any time). I just thought to ask directly for your kind first-hand opinion, as a last try. Thank you.