<p>...the assholes on “a certain other nameless forum” from whom loins our forum was sprung — that certain over-active participants there who are world class trolls and turn every thread into truly idiotic never-ending wars.... people who have he combination of being wrong in every single issue and won’t stop talking about those issues.... that those assholes haven’t discovered our forum. Their absence keeps keeps the level of discourse here at non-idiotic levels. Thank you everyone.</p>
<br><br><p>You all probably know which thread over there that I’m even referring to in particular <img src="https://www.argentinaexpats.org/images/smilies/emojione/263a.png" class="smiley" alt=":)" height="23" srcset="https://www.argentinaexpats.org/images/smilies/emojione/263a@2x.png 2x"></p>
For the record, something I really appreciate about our forum here is....
There are 28 replies in this Thread which has previously been viewed 12,134 times. The latest Post () was by Splinter.
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For me, it’s not limited to any main thread. Anytime the chilly advocate or his ilk come on, for instance, arrogance and insults blot out any meaningful discourse - so yes, I understand completely.
There’s been discussion around what we can do to attract more participants to this forum, and a few things have been tried, but we should be wary: there are quite a few Over There that I hope will never hear of this place. So far this has been a place for interesting, respectful discussions. May it ever be thus.
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Last time I tried to post there, my post was 'not approved' (a polite way to say 'censored') because it was just a reaction to an endless skeptical remark. I believe the situation has gotten a little out of hand there.
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I'm not sure about Argentina Expats springing from the loins of another forum, but either way morganf your comments are certainly welcome and ringing true.
In the spirit of a free and open Internet, it's worth highlighting that this forum does not censor posts, does not read PMs and does not moderate members, thus allowing members to post and PM each other freely without having to look over their shoulders. The only exceptions being spam content and anything considered offensive as detailed in the rules.
I like a good, lively discussion here and there's nothing to hold people back from that, but if there's anything that may be lacking in the forum, please let me know.
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Splinter -- as a purely theoretical matter, I think that if anyone like "the chilly advocate" (to use @EJLarson's phrase) were to troll here like he does on [unnamed other forum], we should DEFINITELY ban him. If we don't, then *we will be identical to the other forum*, and thus lose what makes us distinctive, special, unique. Said more clearly: what's awesome about this forum is the LACK of idiots spouting BS to destroy every thread and turn every thread into another idiotic political discourse in which the intellectual level of the discourse is about that of a 6 year old. If we turn into that, too, then I may as well go back to the other forum - we'll stop being better.
We'll meet that bridge if and when we come to it Morgan because I'm not in any position to denounce potential members, even hypothetically.
An ideological commitment to freedom of speech will turn this space into a shithole like [the other forum], if we ever grow. What we need, and what the other lacks, is QUALITY CONTROL. But quality control based on a set of clearly articulated, and consistent principles. (The difference between democracy and dictatorship isn't total freedom or not; it's whether there are publicly known rules, and their consistent enforcement.) I would not only urge us to have that and follow that -- but among the rules should be, no idiotic flame wars, of the type that have killed [the other forum].
I'm not aware of any flame war having taken place here, but if it does it will be handles accordingly.
Here's a metaphor. Imagine situation [a]: 9 people in a party, having a nice, calm, "tranki", enjoyable conversation. Now compare that to situation [b]: the same 9 people trying to have a conversation, but now there's a tenth person who comes in and literally every second in the party throws shit at everyone. He comes up to one guy in the party, reaches into his ass hole, and with a pile of shit now on his hands, throws it at one of the 9 people. Then he goes to the next person, and does the same again. Again, again, and again. Which party would you rather be at?
Again, we're predicting hypothetical situations that may or may not take place and I think you already know the answer to that rhetorical question.
Rest assured that Argentina Expats welcomes all new members and since the mud slinging to which you refer doesn't apply here, it seems rather pointless discussing hypothetical situations.
morgan
I appreciate your concern morganf , but frankly I'm more concerned with bringing this forum to as many expats as we can and ensuring their visits are fun and enjoyable.
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Of course you are right about the completely different tones of the two platforms, morganf , and it might be worth mentioning that the frozen troll-in-residence is merely a catalyst for the acidic reactions just waiting for an opening. Some years ago, when I was active in the other forum, another member described the progression of discourse this way:
Q: Does anyone know where I can buy greens for my cat?
First reply: You might try a good vet such as El Perro de Cullen, on Guatemala esq. Arraoz.
Second reply: You shouldn't treat your cat like a human. Let it eat grass in the park!
Third reply: Vets in this city charge too much.
Fourth reply: Why in the world would you want to have a cat anyway? You're crazy!
Perhaps the defining difference in our current membership is that we don't have people who are coiled and waiting to pounce on each other. We prefer to help each other and to enjoy conversations that just might broaden our points of view rather than hammering home our differences.
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One thing that makes us nicer is also the fact that we know each other in person and so we talk to each other as we would do in real life.
It happened to me to read 'aggressive' people on forums who were quite agreeable in person. It is not a general rule, but there are more social filters in place in real life conversation and we have those filter in place also on this forum, as a consequence.
morganf, I think we have never met but I am sure we will have the chance to, sooner or later!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Here's my 2 cents FWIW. (Hoping BTW my stuff is not what's being referred to! 😃)
Everybody should be welcome.
If someone gets out of line - to use the terminology used here starts throwing shit - he gets a warning.
Maybe even private at first, only then a public warning.
- "Dude, all opinions are welcome, but be respectful".
- "We've passed the limit of assuming good faith, this sounds too much like trolling".
Also - I'm pretty against deleting posts. Leave them up, but make clear and public the response, whether a rebuke, a threat to ban, or informing the same.
Ban the offender, don't censor what's already been put up (barring something truly outré).
Making the place welcome and enjoyable to most, requires some pruning. IOW - to make it explicitly not welcome to some.
Otherwise the place becomes starts to stink to the point people don't want to return. It might even be subconscious - less of "I'm not going there to see that troll!" and more of a feeling that you might not even notice yourself, of not actively wanting to check it out.
Just my thoughts!
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I agree about NOT deleting posts, otherwise we become a Stalinesque regime. Unless they're totally beyond acceptable such as profane, racist and against the spirit of this forum of course.
In fact, the only post that have been deleted so far are the spam posts.
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serafina said, "It happened to me to read 'aggressive' people on forums who were quite agreeable in person. It is not a general rule, but there are more social filters in place in real life conversation and we have those filter in place also on this forum, as a consequence."
--> Yes, exactly: a mark of a deceitful person is that they are nice to your face but become an asshole when they no longer need to look you in the eye. Someone who is nice in person but suddenly becomes an asshole online: it's ALWAYS the case that they're an asshole but are just too scared/timid/shy to be an asshole to you WHILE LOOKING YOU IN THE EYE, so instead, they'll be an asshole to you while whimpering behind their computer screen.
serafina - we haven't met yet but I've met a bunch of others. It will probably happen sometime, some place, somewhere, somehow, something.
ben -- you would only be the person being referred to in this thread I started only if you are, to use @EJLarson's words, "the chilly advocate". Are you a lawyer? I didn't think so!
Splinter -- "I agree about NOT deleting posts, otherwise we become a Stalinesque regime." I think you have a funny definition of "Stalinesque." I do agree that, for example, should you decide to start sending a few million peasants you round up to labor camps and then to their deaths -- then that would be "Stalinesque." Ha. I hope you're not planning on doing that
Also Splinter -- "In fact, the only post that have been deleted so far are the spam posts." ---> Ay, there's the rub! It all comes down to your subjective (dictatorial!) definition of the word "spam." For example, I would say that the "the chilly advocate's" posts [on the other forum] are PURE SPAM. Trolling is just a very aggressive and obnoxious and invasive (and sometimes fatal) version of spam. And he's trolling.
So, actually, I think we do fully agree on one key point: that we should delete all spam
Now, let's just define spam.... -
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Fun fact of the day: I've never eaten spam (the food). In fact, nor have I ever eaten spam (the unwanted mails/posts), either.
Confession: Haven’t done this for years, but a favorite sandwich was fried Spam slices and over-easy fried egg between two bread slices which had been toasted in the frying pan with butter.
You could actually hear the arteries slam shut.
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This thread could be used as a perfect illustration of “what intelligent, non-crazy people want in a forum.” It contains:
- Interesting, provocative thoughts
- Respectful disagreement
- Unasshole-like behavior in general
Considering this, there’s a rule that could help keep things this way. One way to word it might be:
“Vigorous, provocative discussion is welcomed. Personal attacks are not. Disagreements must be debated within the topic and can be heated, but insulting other members will not be tolerated and could lead to a member’s banning. Say what you want about a subject, but respect must be maintained between members.”
That’s too wordy, but I wanted to be sure the idea is clear.
Example: “I just think that sounds stupid.” Allowed.
“To believe that, you have to be the world’s biggest moron. Hope you haven’t procreated yet.” Not allowed.
Splinter, this is your call, but maybe something explicit like this in the rules could at least warn the morons and assholes.
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I think everything needs to be taken in context quite frankly, so narrowing down the field to specific turns of phrase or words would become a headache.
Having said that, the forum software has a banned word filter which would certainly ban chosen words, but that's not a path any of us would ever wish to go down.
Regarding spam morganf , the deleted posts/threads were the nonsense ones directing us to links that were clearly designed to entrap people and the posters set up their accounts here specifically for that reason. It doesn't really need any further clarification than that.
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I was probably too wordy, but simply stated, the thought was: personal attacks on members aren’t allowed.
The existing rules don’t make that explicit.
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Compared with the comments which some people do in La Nacion articles, we are in a Paradise.
Mostly of them have orthographic mistakes; even they cannot explain what they intend to say, and their vocabulary is extremely rude.
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This thread could be used as a perfect illustration of “what intelligent, non-crazy people want in a forum.” It contains:
- Interesting, provocative thoughts
- Respectful disagreement
- Unasshole-like behavior in general
Considering this, there’s a rule that could help keep things this way. One way to word it might be:
“Vigorous, provocative discussion is welcomed. Personal attacks are not. Disagreements must be debated within the topic and can be heated, but insulting other members will not be tolerated and could lead to a member’s banning. Say what you want about a subject, but respect must be maintained between members.”
That’s too wordy, but I wanted to be sure the idea is clear.
Example: “I just think that sounds stupid.” Allowed.
“To believe that, you have to be the world’s biggest moron. Hope you haven’t procreated yet.” Not allowed.
Splinter, this is your call, but maybe something explicit like this in the rules could at least warn the morons and assholes.
OK, looks like I probably wasn't clear. I'll try again:
- I think most people here are idiots.
- I said "most" and not "all" just to be polite. Feel free to think you're the exception, dipshit.
- If ever there was a place where you could see everyone's idiocy on display, look no further than the moronic drivel on this thread.
- Banning people for pointing out how dumb you are? Hope it makes you feel powerful. What a loser.
- This is all actually relevant to the abortion debate. Having read y'all, I now support it.
I'm not pro-choice, though: I think in a lot of cases, it ought to be mandatory. - I'd go into detail regarding every one of the geniuses here, but that's time I frankly shouldn't be wasting on you.
- Feel free to spend the rest of your worthless day debating whether I'm respectful enough. Me, I got work to do. Look it up.
Peace to all!
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One assumes that it's a given, but I will indeed add this to the forum rules.
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OK, looks like I probably wasn't clear. I'll try again:
- I think most people here are idiots.
- I said "most" and not "all" just to be polite. Feel free to think you're the exception, dipshit.
- If ever there was a place where you could see everyone's idiocy on display, look no further than the moronic drivel on this thread.
- Banning people for pointing out how dumb you are? Hope it makes you feel powerful. What a loser.
- This is all actually relevant to the abortion debate. Having read y'all, I now support it.
I'm not pro-choice, though: I think in a lot of cases, it ought to be mandatory. - I'd go into detail regarding every one of the geniuses here, but that's time I frankly shouldn't be wasting on you.
- Feel free to spend the rest of your worthless day debating whether I'm respectful enough. Me, I got work to do. Look it up.
Peace to all!
Yeah, that's what I meant. (Thanks for the clarification, dumber-than-me.)
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