So this is what non binary means

There are 28 replies in this Thread which has previously been viewed 6,101 times. The latest Post () was by serafina.

    Quote from Semigoodlooking

    I am happy to recognize them as whatever they want to be, but I don't think I am willing to ask every person I meet how they prefer to be addressed and I don't think I am willing to play the pronoun game. I think it is an infringement to try to force people to say certain things, especially when the clarity on what to say has not been properly defined.

    Very thoughtfully considered. And I clearly concur on the pronoun issue.

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    Semigoodlooking you wrote a great post. However, some of what you call 'gut feelings' are indeed the product of our culture.

    For example, we condemn polygamy because someone told us that it is a despicable practice. However, it is perfectly acceptable in other cultures. We morally condemn promiscuity, too, although biology would say that the more varied the mating, the higher chances of survival of the offspring born to it.


    When I was a kid, I learned that the male mates with one female only, and that they are united for life once they got married. Then, whether my religion liked it or not, or whether society saw it favourably or not, I came across same sex couples, divorced couples, remarried people that had children with different partners or out of wedlock etc. So I no longer think bad about those people a priori... and I am a child to divorced parents.


    I judged those people hastily for many years, and my gut feeling is still that it is wrong. However, with years I came to know many and many cases, and realised that, for instance, people who remarried didn't it to hurt their former spouse or because they had ill intentions in the first place, or because they were unable to control their 'got feelings' for another person different from their spouse...


    So, our society / culture / religion told us that it was wrong to unfaithful, although people have been doing it since ever... it was just better concealed for a while. If we look further back, it wasn't necessarily a bad thing (I am thinking about Greece). So, the way we look at the world, isn't exactly with pristine eyes but already through a few lenses, whether we realize it or not.

    Really, the survival of the offspring depends on how promiscuous we as a species are? I don't think that the rising population has anything to do with global warming then.


    As for being faithful, I have never seen since childhood, people being faithful, that includes my mum and dad, but that has nothing to do with the utter crap they come up these days with "gender being the social norm", when its in fact a biology norm. I was born a man, I am grateful for that. Does the LGBT+ ever explain what the social norm is to me? No, they keep spouting "social norm, social norm" etc...without any explanation.


    If someone came up to me and told me to say the proper pronouns, I will in no doubt tell them where to go, and it won't be polite, I guarantee you. I will tell them, I won't discriminate against them, or harm them, but as to call them by their "proper" pronouns, I do have limits. And if they don't like it, they'll have to get over it


    All I can assume they've done is read some book from a psychiatrist and gone along with it, regardless if the book is true or a whole load of rubbish, that is where this rubbish of wokeness has come from. You do realise that scientists, psychiatrist and doctors are human, and can get their facts wrong? Let alone be biased towards a group of individuals, especially when funding is low from governments, can get paid from certain groups who have interests in pushing their agendas. I have no proof that this has gone on, but I do wonder with the rubbish they spout if that is the case

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    I am afraid I don't follow the logic(s) in your post, SpaceNut .


    Most animal species aren't monogamous, sexual acts between same sex animals happens, the man is the only species that has sex for fun.


    It was Darwin who said that the more a male mixes, the highest chances of their offspring survival are! I don't think he was involved in the LGBT community or had an agenda to get financed by private groups because public funding is low... But of course you are feel to think otherwise.


    I also hope we can do better than role modelling animals since there is such a big variety and our comprehension of them is still small. However, we can observe our own species, and unfaithfulness, same sex couples/intercourse, and gender issues are observed across the world, regardless of the country of what their psychiatrists/psychologists say.


    I also don't think one "becomes" gay or non-binary by imitation / external influence, since it doesn't seem an easy position to be in, even in 2021.

    This is why the subject is so tricky, because the knowledge on the why this happens is not available.


    Some other animals do engage in sexual activity for fun, or more accurately not just as part of reproduction.


    There are plenty of instances where someone becomes gay and non-binary. Prisons are a notable example, so there is some obvious situations where someone chooses a different gender and to engage in same sex relations. The problem is we still do not know if they are outliers or if external factors play a role in someone regendering themselves across the board. I 100% do not doubt that people feel the need to change and have the right to live that change if they want. What I am unclear on is whether that feeling comes from nature or nuture.


    And while I understand the point about cultures viewing our norms differently, this is not a cultural issue. And being unfaithful, promiscous, or divorcing are still within the realm of the reproductive idea (male/female). Nature tells us this is normal for sexual activity if the goal is to reproduce, but one of the things we as a species do is go beyond the animal. So, we can transcend what nature has defined in many ways through freedom of thought and expression of that thought. So, again, the ability to move beyond what is normal for sexual activity, does this lean towards a chosen/learned behaviour over something that naturally occurs?


    I believe in people's freedoms and I am not against someones feelings and being able to express them in a way that fulfils them. I do not think changing gender is wrong, dirty, or whatever. I just do not think we have answered the question as to why it happens. Although, it is a massive concern that many people who are transgender, non-gendered, or something else remain unhappy. It just seems to me something psychological is happening that we do not yet understand.


    SpaceNut You telling those people to stick their pronouns in a non-polite way is discriminating them. Personally, while I do not specifically agree with the pronouns and will not play the game of being expected to know what individual people expect to be called at any moment, I would call someone by whatever they wanted if they specifically asked me to. However, those same people also need to have some understanding. If I have been saying he at someone who looks male and then that same person who still looks male tells me it is actually "they", "zhe" or whatever and I accidentally call them he, just deal with it and don't get offended.


    I hate the constant taking offence in this society, not people's right to be free and ask me to call them what they want to be called. If everyone would just calm down the world would not be filled with hate as it is now. Your reaction is a good example. You get offended by the person asking you to call them some random pronoun, they then get offended at you for not calling them the pronoun and instantly a wall of hate has been built between two people.

    What can we do though? I am not going to be forced into something I don't want to do. No one else in their right mind will do that. The problem is that anything offends them, even if you breathe it might offend them.

    Again, you're not making sense, first of all you're saying that promiscuity makes a offspring tougher, there are lots of people who have had babies with defects as in autism, disabilities, not merely because the parents were promiscuous, but they have more chances of producing offspring by the thing they're doing, like sleeping around with one person after the other.


    As far as Darwin goes, he had a thesis. Thesis can be wrong by their very nature, because some people don't tend to question scientists or biologists, they take their words as gospel, which is wrong. Darwin was more into wildlife than human mating, so how can he possibly know? Animals need to reproduce by their very nature because they are inherently at risk from their natural predators, that is what we see on nature programmes when lions and tigers hunt for food. Unlike humans, who don't seem to have any natural predators that I can think of


    Scientists may know a lot more than us, but they are fallible i.e. they do make mistakes, why you believe everything Darwin says, is up to you. But I don't

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    Yeah, we are so superior we need vaccines, antibiotics, shelter, agriculture, tools, technology, science etc. or we would be as vulnerable as the next animal. I am leaving this thread for good because there is really no point in discussing with someone who doesn't believe in science and bases his knowledge of the world on himself alone and his experimental and limited observations.


    I think your theories are far less believable than those produced by centuries of science and checked by thousands of scientists.