To be or not to be in AR?

There are 72 replies in this Thread which has previously been viewed 9,428 times. The latest Post (December 17, 2024 at 7:09 PM) was by UK Man.

    Hi all -

    To live or not to live in Argentina - the question you guys only heard about 1000 times. My angle is that, having perused this forum and other information and reading between the lines, I went from an 85% conviction to move to Argentina, to a 2% one.

    I'm writing with some remaining hope to be proven wrong.

    From the initial, promising picture of a beautiful country, with half the living costs of the US, good food and dining, good infrastructure and healthcare, comparable safety to the US (there are many urban areas to stay away from here, too), the only thing that hasn't changed about Argentina is "beautiful country". I'm old and traveled enough to have imagined that the country would be rough around the edges, that big cities have unsafe areas, that services are slow and that financials may pose challenges. But the reality that seeps through is one of significant personal-safety issues, of living costs that have risen on a relative basis, and of a food scene that leaves some to be desired, with average (or even poorly supplied) grocery stores and a limited or pricey dining experience. Furthermore, cash management appears to be demanding on a daily basis. All together, with safety in particular, and given the relocation effort, language curve and social reset, have nearly cancelled the proposition for me. I still believe there are beautiful, livable small towns and I look forward to visiting some in my upcoming first trip over (my intent had been to settle in a coastal city or town, such as Bahia or Necochea). But even there, it seems that, while safety would be better, the other challenges would remain, along with some social isolation.

    I don't mean to offend any expats with this. You might very well have it better there than us here in the US (where healthcare costs are obscene, inner cities are rough, and you can potentially get sued at any time). I just thought to ask directly for your kind first-hand opinion, as a last try. Thank you.

    Greetings Explorer

    You’ve clearly done some research but everyone’s reality is different.

    I’m pleased to hear you have a trip planned to head down here because what you find first-hand will inform much better than any internet research.

    I know I’m stating the obvious but it’s worth setting it down as a first principle.

    And the 2nd principle is to be very cautious about finding daily living costs as a prime motivation. Obviously finances have to work but you’ve got to like living here first and foremost.

    I don’t even live here year round and not by a long stretch so I’m not the best qualified to answer everything at all.

    Quote from Splinter

    Stay here for a month or two and see how you like it.

    Indeed....

    It's an interesting subject and one I'm really not qualified to give advice on if I'm being honest. I've always had my Argentine missus to mentor me. If not for her I certainly wouldn't have had the balls to up sticks and move here on a permanent basis. I doubt I would have had the patience to put up with all the hassles of being a full time resident here on my own anyway.

    Argentina in 2024 is nothing like it was few years back.

    It is much more expensive. inflation has fallen but still remains above 100% per year.

    And the Dollar is not keeping pace with inflation.

    Come down and see for yourself.

    I reluctantly agree with everyone about all the negatives, which are mostly economic. But the cultural offerings here (a great many, free of charge) remain outstanding. As @Bombonera said, “Obviously finances have to work but you’ve got to like living here first and foremost.”

    I, also, am glad you are coming for a visit, which I hope will be a nice long one, and will include trips to the towns that you’re considering.

    Here is an ad from one of the supermarkets. It will give you an idea of prices so you can compare to what you pay in your city.

    Mirá la nueva Revista de Ofertas de Coto 😍
    Encontrá las mejores promos y ofertas.
    www.coto.com.ar

    Yes, the cultural offer is outstanding, but I am not sure that cities like Bahia Blanca or Necochea have that much offering.

    Food-wise, my experience tells me that outside of Capital, the food choice is quite boring and repetitive.

    Right now, Argentina is not the cheap haven to live on SS like it was a decade ago. In fact, several of the expats that I have met along the years who were enjoying their retirement in Argentina, have left for a variety of reasons (to be closer with their children/grandchildren in the US, both to enjoy them and to get help from them as they get older).

    Quote from Explorer

    All together, with safety in particular, and given the relocation effort, language curve and social reset, have nearly cancelled the proposition for me. I still believe there are beautiful, livable small towns and I look forward to visiting some in my upcoming first trip over (my intent had been to settle in a coastal city or town, such as Bahia or Necochea). But even there, it seems that, while safety would be better, the other challenges would remain, along with some social isolation.

    It is safe. A three month vacation traveling all along the Atlantic coast towns is a good way to learn. You should consider visiting farther south than Necochea, to include many towns all the way until Comodoro Rivadavia if the coast is your preference. If traveling alone the bus between cities and towns will be easier to interact with people to ease your social isolation concerns. Starting with a week or two, or more, at a language learning school is also a good way to be around new people.

    I'm very thankful to have gotten your replies. Yes, it's the whole package - nature, society, safety, food, etc. - but, frankly, the cost of living (including healthcare) edges out all other factors; let's say it makes for 50% of the proposition. Otherwise the US is a large place with many beautiful areas, too, and so is Australia, and Europe in a much more special way. But I've never been interested in using up my lifetime to work to pay bills.

    I hear you all being rather unhappy with the cost of living having gone up. Comparison sites that I've been looking at, such as this: https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living…ntry2=Argentina

    put it roughly at half the US cost. What do you guys think that one can live on, before housing costs, somewhere outside a mid-sized city like Bahia Blanca, car included? USD 1200/month could do? I'm neither frugal nor a spender. Then healthcare is a huge unknown. Here in the US, should you get hit by a health condition, you're literally wiped out. Does your insurance cover you well for all situations over there?

    My upcoming trip (beginning of December) would be short, but I could do a longer one a bit later, depending. As I said, I'm seeking coastal locations, such as a small town not too far from a city, and not too far south either. A house with ocean view - something completely out of reach here - would be my second most important criterion, on par with "safety". By the figures, nature and weather look good, but, as far as living and socializing, one needs to see it or draw from the experience of others. While I mean well to all, it's only natural that I take comfort in knowing that most people are of European descent, like me. Still, I cannot help wonder if locals in suburban environments would be no more than polite - hey, the way I am where I live!

    Would much appreciate any takes on the budget and healthcare, too.

    I'd say the main problem here at the moment with those price comparison figures is that prices keep going up while the Blue dollar keeps weakening. How long that'll go on for is anyones guess.

    You'll get a better idea yourself when you come on a scouting holiday. Things might have settled down more by then.

    As for how you'll be received by the locals. I've always been met with nothing but kindness and curiosity by everyone and never felt threatened. A smile works wonders.

    The Argentinian coast is extensive and it is dotted with tiny towns along the way. I have only driven from Buenos Aires to Mar del Sur. Those small towns can be on the ocean (1 km from it) or ocean-facing. Some have beaches and some are higher than the beach and you have to walk or drive to the ocean. They are also windy and cold in winter. Food available is very plain and basics, with just a few small stores all selling the same stuff. The restaurant scene could go down to zero outside of the summer season. And I don't know how you can exchange/get money in such isolated places. You would be also very far from good healthcare.

    You will definitely need a car. Cars can be expensive (even used ones) by EU-US standards and car insurance is more expensive than in Europe. Gasoline is cheap, though.

    Bigger coastal town are between Buenos Aires and Mar del Plata. They get very crowded in summer as people move from the city to there en masse. Cariló is nice, but expensive, property-wise. It has a better food choice than other towns, though.

    You can go on zonaprop.com.ar and browse property prices.

    Carilo , Pinamar and Mar de las Pampas are all nice towns.

    But very expensive in high season from mid December until February .

    One advantage is a very big Coto supermarket which allows you to buy food and drink.

    The restaurants in the first two towns will remain open most of the year.

    Very useful, thanks guys. My guess would've been close - the coast between BA and MDP would be busier, and more seasonally so, with better supplying of everything but also higher prices and higher risk of incidents, perhaps. I don't know what numbers does it draw in the summer but if it comes down to parked cars filling up your town's streets and people packing your food stores and restaurants - no thanks. I wonder if this goes all the way to BB or it gets rarefied before then. As I mentioned, I wouldn't go remote, but to some town where nature/ocean is untainted, while amenities are decent. My southern limit would theoretically be 45 min. or so south of BB. At 300k people, I'd think that city has much of the healthcare and other facilities one would normally need. Is that a reasonable expectation? That wouldn't be too far from BA for any overseas air travel, either.

    Yes, a car is a must for me. It surprises me to hear that they're more expensive (in $) than in the US, and that it applies to insurance, too. Here I pay about $800/year/car for average insurance and you can get a good used car at $15k-25k. With the kind of wages the Argentines have, how would they afford more than that?

    Quote from UK Man
    Quote from Rice

    Here is an ad from one of the supermarkets. It will give you an idea of prices so you can compare to what you pay in your city.

    https://www.coto.com.ar/images/catalog…ndex_mobile.asp

    Thank you for the supermarket link, though I'm not sure I can compare prices in a helpful way. Stores and prices vary anywhere, by products and quality and location, of course. I was wondering, ballpark, if $1,200 (before housing) would suffice as a monthly budget for an individual living in an average town or suburb.

    But, if I should attempt a tiny comparison, taking the current rate of $1=971 ARS, and an unprocessed food such as the steak, it looks like it sells at about $6.5/kg, whereas here it averages about $20/kg I think.

    Edited once, last by Explorer: Merged a post created by Explorer into this post. (October 3, 2024 at 2:17 PM).

    Quote from Explorer

    But, if I should attempt a tiny comparison, taking the current rate of $1=971 ARS, and an unprocessed food such as the steak, it looks like it sells at about $6.5/kg, whereas here it averages about $20/kg I think.

    Why are you using the official rate?

    Quote from Explorer

    I was wondering, ballpark, if $1,200 (before housing) would suffice as a monthly budget for an individual living in an average town or suburb.

    Have you started to investigate how to live here with a valid visa for temporary or permanent residence? Tourist visa is for 3 months. A retirement (Pensionado) Visa or Rentista visa are common. There are others. I do not know the details, though I think you need to prove sufficient monthly funds. https://www.argentina.gob.ar/servicio/obten…como-pensionado

    The relevant detail in that regard is:

    “Constancia expedida por un gobierno, un organismo internacional o una empresa particular que certifique la percepción de una pensión o jubilación en forma regular y permanente, de un monto igual o superior a la suma de CINCO (5) Salarios Mínimo Vital y Móvil”

    And I gather that is pointing towards USD 2000 presently

    Quote from serafina

    Why are you using the official rate?

    Just to be conservative.

    But, if using the "dolar blue" the food would seem relatively even less expensive there, which seems conflicting with what you all say that affordability is largely gone.

    Quote from aficionado

    Have you started to investigate how to live here with a valid visa for temporary or permanent residence? Tourist visa is for 3 months. A retirement (Pensionado) Visa or Rentista visa are common. There are others. I do not know the details, though I think you need to prove sufficient monthly funds. https://www.argentina.gob.ar/servicio/obten…como-pensionado

    Quote from Bombonera

    The relevant detail in that regard is:

    “Constancia expedida por un gobierno, un organismo internacional o una empresa particular que certifique la percepción de una pensión o jubilación en forma regular y permanente, de un monto igual o superior a la suma de CINCO (5) Salarios Mínimo Vital y Móvil”

    And I gather that is pointing towards USD 2000 presently

    A straight internet search shows minimum wage in AR to be about $215/month. That would bring the above total, if so required indeed, to about $1250/month. Not sure where the $2k is coming from and it seems far off the costs and prices I see. It would also be a non-starter for me, regardless of how scenic and happening the country is.

    I wasn't asking for the official requirements as much as for your own experience. What sort of budget, before housing, do you go by?

    Yes, I looked at visas and permanent residence. I don't really have an issue with fulfilling the proof of funds. I'm trying to see for real if I can afford living there long-term, probably for my remaining lifetime, while maintaining a cushion. I just wish someone would be willing to share their costs first-hand - living, auto, healthcare. Thanks.

    Edited once, last by Explorer: Merged a post created by Explorer into this post. (October 4, 2024 at 11:55 PM).

    Explorer , I’m not the best example for normal living expenses, since we are here only part of each year, so our housing costs are far higher per month than normal, and exceed the total monthly living budget you suggested. We live in the city and don’t have a car. We pay for medical expenses as needed, rather than having insurance.

    A short-term comparison of food prices might or might not be helpful to you, but I can give you a few examples of increases between Oct 2023 and Oct 2024. Non-perishable grocery items seem to be 5o%+ higher than a year ago. Cheese is a bigger part of our diet than meat; while I could only guess at meat price increases, I can tell you that we paid well more than double for cheeses last week. Some vegetables, such as potatoes, are close to 100% more, while some, such as lettuce, haven’t increased at all in price at our n’hood verdulería. This is why it is so difficult to generalize.

    Restaurants used to be be a large part of our monthly expenses. Now we rarely go to restaurants because the prices are 2-3 times what they were a year ago. Prices increase so often that many restaurants rely on QR codes rather than printing prices on menus.

    In Sept 2023, we paid 22,000 pesos for a remis from the airport, in December, we paid 33,000. Last month, it was 55,000.

    What you can see from all of this is that the most important unknown factor is inflation. We are all hoping that it will be brought under control with the Milei government’s austerity emphasis and anti-corruption measures. But it remains to be seen whether inflation will be brought down to a level that would allow anyone to project whether in 10 years’ time, living expenses will be 5 times what they are today, or 10, or 20.

    With a fixed income, this could be a constant source of stress.

    I am spending October and November alone, and while fixed costs are the same, I am also implementing my own austerity measures. My only concessions are cigarettes and coffee or chocolate croissant now and then. I don't go out for lunch or dinner, I don't order delivery - both things that I used to do in the past. I make my own bread and pizza, I barely eat any meat, and the only cheese I eat is on pizza. I eat mostly vegetables.

    With most bills due by October 5, I had optimistically exchanged $500 on 9/30. Then I had to exchange $200 and finally $100. I think I have 30,000 pesos left in my wallet right now and I still have to pay for health insurance (about 248,000 pesos for the two of us, we are in our 40s). I believe I will have to exchange another $400 during October.

    Electricity was 117,000 pesos. We used it extensively for heating during this cold winter. This is just payment 2/2 of the bimester. Payment 1/2 was 112,000 pesos (last month).

    Mobile phones, two lines, is about 30k.

    My private university fee is 147,000 pesos and mine is among the cheapest careers. I understand this doesn't apply to you.

    A car spot at the car garage nearby is 90,500 pesos per month. It was the same as in September, much to my surprise.

    Building expenses (no amenities, no doorman) - I expect they will be around 70-80,000 pesos

    Gas (used for cooking heating) - around 20,000 pesos

    Internet service - I believe it should be around 30-40,000

    Cat food & supplies - around 40-50,000 pesos (dry and wet)

    Car insurance - I believe about 100,000 pesos per month

    Car gas - I rarely drive, so I haven't put in any gas this month. It should be about 30-35,000 pesos to fill it up (32 liters)

    Other items are charged directly on our bank account (like car insurance, internet etc) so I am not sure about the exact amount.

    Other items are very subjective.

    I bought a medium coffee to go on Thursday, which came at 4,000 pesos and it was crap

    A pain au chocolate to go (the frozen one that gets cooked by the coffee store) - 3,100 pesos

    I no longer have my breakfast out, as it was 6,000-7,000 every time, and I didn't even buy a slice of cake, just the cheapest coffee and sweet.

    Philip Morris (12 cigarettes) - from $2100 to $2350

    Marmalade jar (250 g) - $4799 per jar, and I bought it at a bulk verduleria. In a dietetica, no marmelade is less than $5000, and if you want the fine stuff you can pay 10-15,000 pesos per jar.

    When we arrived here 10 years ago, I wrote to my uncle that eating out was so cheap, that it made little sense to cook at home.

    Right now, it is not the same.

    A pasta dish it about 9-10,000 pesos, whereas even using imported stuff it is much cheaper:

    - Pasta La Molisana (500g) - 2600 pesos at Jumbo

    - Tomato sauce La Molisana (400g) - 1800 pesos at Jumbo

    We can consider, generously, to make 4 plates with $5200, so $1730 pesos per dish vs. 10x outside

    A basic pizza (muzzarella) in a pizza place I think it now costs from 15,000 upward, depending on the pizzeria.

    - Flour (1kg) - 700 pesos (I use 150 g per pizza, so let's make 100 pesos/pizza)

    - Fresh yeast (40 g) - 400 pesos (I use 4g per pizza, so 40 pesos/pizza)

    - Tomato sauce La Molisana (400g) - 1800 pesos at Jumbo (a can is enough for 4 pizzas, so 450 pesos/pizza)

    - Mozzarella slices (enough for 1 pizza) - 1800 pesos at El Puente

    so 2390 pesos per pizza vs. 6x outside

    If we want to be fair, my home made pizza feeds one, whereas the large muzzarella sold at local pizzeria feed 2 or 3 people, but you have to tip (10%) and drink.

    In my area, the going price for a pint of beer is $4000. I buy a bottle of artisanal beer for $3000 (2 pints).

    My Trapiche Origen wine is on offer at Carrefour, about $3450 per bottle if you buy two (vs. $4500 regular price). I drink 1 bottle over two meals. I would guess that for that price you barely buy a glass in a bar, nowadays.

    There is a cake place I have wanted to visit for a while, with a large selection and large slices, but the cheapest one is $9800. Instead, I have bread and marmalade. If I am really in the mood for chocolate, I buy Rasta alfajores (2x $2000) and have them with bread. It is like a nutella panini, in the end.

    Yesterday, I visited Palermo Hollywood as there is a local bakery that sells nice cinnamon rolls for $800. I bought 4 to freeze, so that when I am in the urge for a sweet breakfast I can simply heat one up vs. going to the coffee place and buy a pain au chocolate for $3100. While I was there, I saw they had chocotorta by the portion. It was $5500. Delicious, but at 4,60 USD per portion, and this being in a local bakery, nothing fancy, I don't see myself buying it regularly.

    My diet right now is mostly pazza, rice, bread combined with vegetables, coffee and cigarettes.