A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum

There are 15 replies in this Thread which has previously been viewed 2,480 times. The latest Post (May 7, 2023 at 9:57 PM) was by UK Man.

    Hi @Bombonera ,

    I think you are referring to Mr. Carlos post on your post 'A post trip reflective report'. Mr. Carlos and I are the only non-native English speakers of the forum and I realize that sometimes our posts in English may not sound how we intended to. You may have noticed that Mr. Carlos is usually the biggest critic of Argentina among the forum members - and rightfully so. He is a local and has been living in Argentina for eight decades, so he witnessed the fall of a country that was once a world power and is now on its way to become a third world country. I myself can't think of a similar country, besides Venezuela, maybe. Which is not encouraging at all.

    Obviously, Carlos is bitter about Argentina's fall, as many other Argentinians who are wondering what will be left of Argentina for their children and grandchildren.

    As I read Mr Carlos ' post, he was actually encouraging you to post also the negative stuff because he is well aware that in the last 70 years Argentina has been declining -- and the list of negatives is only getting longer.

    Perhaps the misunderstanding arose from the choice of the word "truthful" in his first sentence "Be truthful.". As I read it, I believe he intended as in "please describe the stark reality without sugarcoating it". He wasn't trying to say that "you usually lie, so this time speak the truth".

    I really enjoy your posts on the forum and it is reassuring to see that someone else from Europe is considering to move here (even if just part-time) in 2023. The first 2-4 years that we moved here, we were constantly questioning ourselves.

    I have met Italians who live in Argentina and Argentinians who live in Italy. Some will adapt, some will not. And this is valid for Italians and Argentinians alike. The pros and the cons can be very subjective. I even found a person who said he has made more money by working a decade in Argentina than 25 years in his home country. And it wasn't in the XIX century!

    I am eager to continue reading your reflections on Argentina. :cheers:

    Quote from Bombonera

    I consciously steer clear of web forums because they always end up the same way.

    They are generally populated with people with an agenda, with anger issues, those wanting to steer and control a particular narrative bla bla bla.

    And the funny thing here is I found a forum free of it.

    And then I found a member trying to control what I say.

    And before I've even said it.

    True, forums are strange beasts, which is why I confine my membership to only half a dozen. The others are PC tech sites, motorcycle and writing/author forums. Frankly, there are too many to get deeply involved with.

    I was banned several times from the other expats forum which is why I started this one nearly a decade ago to give expats a place to go where they knew it was not run by a Stalin acolyte and it seems to work.

    We don't moderate here in the usual sense, unless it's spam or totally undesirable. Neither do we block posts, censor posts or read private messages, as the other place does.

    As for interaction between members, what can I say?

    Definitely agree. We aren’t one of THOSE forums. Rather, we enjoy what everyone else posts, and encourage each other, as Carlos was actually doing.

    Glad to get this out in the open so it could be put to rest!

    BTW, there are a couple of things I find bizarre in Argentina: one is the disorderly way people meander around from right to left to center, on the sidewalks, as though no one else might be about to fall over them. I notice this especially in older people, who are also apt to come to a full stop without warning. We walk on average about 13 km/day, not on a track but actually going from one place to another, and we encounter this maddening obstacle course constantly.

    And while I’m getting my frustrations out, I must ask: in the countries you are from, are the teenagers as publicly demonstrative as they are in Buenos Aires? As in all limbs constantly intertwined, and lip-locked, with no regard to where they are? If I’m feeling kind, I tell myself they live in a crowded city with little privacy, and that is why they don’t differentiate among a private corner in a library, a park bench, or the doorway to a museum or cathedral. But then, I usually just feel I’m giving them too much credit, when actually they simply have no sense of an appropriate vs a wildly inappropriate venue.

    Quote from serafina

    Perhaps the misunderstanding arose from the choice of the word "truthful" in his first sentence "Be truthful.". As I read it, I believe he intended as in "please describe the stark reality without sugarcoating it". He wasn't trying to say that "you usually lie, so this time speak the truth".


    I see you understood better than me the reason of the anger of Mr Bombonera. you are a keen observer. What I was trying to ask him was that: describe the dark aspects of our country, and do not hesitate if I am an Argentinean citizen. The word "truthful" was infortunate.

    Thank you for your intervention in this matter.

    Quote from Bombonera

    … I found a place where I was in step with the crowd. And where discussion could flourish free of instruction and limitation.

    Rice maybe they’re still saving up for 3 hours at the local albergué transitorio 🤣

    You’ve just described this forum! It looks like you simply took offense where none was intended, and unfortunately misinterpreted one grammatical interjection as an instruction. But by now, I’m sure you’ve seen the apology for the unintended slight, and we can turn the page?

    As for the albergué transitorio? The people I’m talking about seem to PREFER making out in public.

    I found that in Argentina young people are far less open in public than in Italy. I am surprised when I see young Argentines making out in the streets, which seems unusual here!

    About the erratic walking of older people, I agree with Rice . A tiny older woman can take up a very large sidewalk drifting left to right to left and then come to a sudden halt. I also found that people do not seem to care that there are other people on the sidewalk, so they take up the whole width regardless of who comes from behind or in front of them. This is one of those things that irks me, but I guess it is natural to them and they wouldn't understand my anger remake anyway. SO I keep my mouth shut and just try to pass them.

    Same here. It sure makes for slow going, though!

    And I start to wonder if we are all destined to become as unaware of others, as we reach old age.

    One must remember that Argentines have very different social behaviour to say Brits or Americans.

    I'm fairly solitary, but my Arg friends and others love to gather in huge groups, shoulder to shoulder and I'm not a fan of noisy situations, unless I've had a few and turn the music up. However our neighbours love loud music and nobody else around here seems to care. Very laissez faire, which must be commended, up to a point.

    That sense of "personal space" has been studied since many years ago. Mediterranean peoples have a small personal space, so people stay close to one another. The middle eastern people are the extreme side.

    But also is a question of class. When you were educated in middle and high classes, people knows the necessary personal space in relation to a person who is close to him. If the person is not from your family, you are not allowed to stay close, except in the Public Transport. If the person is some sibling ot relative, personal space is reduced.

    I wonder if similar studies have been conducted about noise space?

    There is a regrettable new phenomenon called a Slingshot here as well as in other US cities. It is a low-slung 3-wheeled open “car” of sorts, equipped with an ear-splittingly loud sound system through which drivers play rap music at top volume as they cruise as slowly as possible through city streets. Their approach can be heard four to six blocks away, and when they are within a block or more, all conversation has to stop, since the human voice can’t be heard over the din. It goes without saying that all traffic grinds to a halt as the drivers are skilled enough to stay close to 5 km/hr.

    Because the drivers are very generous people and seemingly live to share their music, they drive as slowly as they can, and often circle the same block (a process that can take 20 minutes/block) more than once.

    I hope this curse never arrives in BsAs.

    @Bombonera , as I just re-read the responses, the members of this forum didn’t turn our backs on you. Rather, we all wanted to keep you from being hurt by a non-existent insult you felt wounded by. Knowing this was a simple matter of misinterpretation, several of us immediately stepped in to try to help you see the situation as we did. Carlos even wrote a public apology for the completely unintended insult that you inferred but that was not implied.

    Carlos has always been one of the most appreciative of your posts and your interest in Argentine history, as clearly evidenced by all the “likes” he gave your posts. I am sure that he will miss your posts in the future, as will I.

    @Bombonera , I think you must have missed this, and I believe if you read it now, you will see the way out of this situation. All you need to do is say “I misread your meaning, Carlos, and I understand your explanation. No harm done, and I hope you feel the same.” [see below]

    Online
    Carlos

    Argentina.png

    Quote
    0236543fbc2c7d507e62bf86017332b8-128.png Quote from Bombonera Of course I am going to be truthful. I’m disappointed that you are getting defensive and anticipating lies before I’ve even posted Carlos. Maybe I should cease further journal posts right here.
    That you are attacking my honesty and integrity is offensive actually and way outside of the spirit of this forum.

    [Carlos replied]

    “I regret too much that you have not understood my words. I only said that we deserves eulogies and also high criticism, and it was a way that invited you to say what are the negative sides of this country. I never had the intention to offend your honesty and integrity. I am interested to know how other people see us with total frankness, that's all.

    By the way, I know very well the dark sides of my country and I am accustomed to live in a country that only went back in the last 70 years.

    Your posts are always interesting, please continue to post in the days to come.”


    This is easy to resolve, @Bombonera . Put yourself in Carlos’s shoes and you will know that he was encouraging you to give your unvarnished observations without fear of offending him. That’s all he meant.

    Thanks for inviting me to help clear up the misunderstanding. Let’s get back to the business of great exchange of thoughts and having fun on the forum!