Abortion vote in Senate set for this week

There are 18 replies in this Thread which has previously been viewed 6,248 times. The latest Post () was by serafina.

1st Official Post

    Of the three options (pass without changes, pass with changes, fail to pass), it looks pretty certain that the abortion bill will fail to pass, postponing further discussion for 7 months. Though with the presidential election approaching in 2019, a defeat now will effectively end consideration until 2020.


    An article in the Irish times quotes the alarming statistics that 4 out of 10 pregnancies in Argentina currently end in abortion and that the annual number of abortions in the country is 500,000. Apparently criminalizing abortion has not been saving lives. One cannot help wondering if decriminalizing would increase these shockingly high numbers.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/w…tion-1.3585414%3fmode=amp


    I am not advocating either for or against this legislation, whose rigidity in extending the allowable period to extend beyond the first trimester, as well as not allowing medical professionals to exercise conscientious objection, seemed to doom its passage.


    But if 40% of pregnancies in Argentina end in abortion, shouldn’t everyone be asking if there is anyone in the country considering abortion who is deterred by the current law?

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    Not to forgot Dr. Abel Albino who said, in front of the Senate, that the condom doesn't protect against AIDS.


    Should such a person be allowed to exercise the medical profession? He is the president of Conin, an association to combat children hunger in Argentina that receives public fundings.

    Other 'highlights' of his speech: one in three coitus with a condom end in pregnancy. The HIV passes through porcelain (he is convinced condoms are made of porcelain).


    The news made it to the Spanish CCN, as well.

    The Bubble's coverage is here.

    The 500,000 abortions in Argentina is only one more fake new. There is no scientific evidence.

    There are a lot of interest in this country to allow abortion to use the phetus organs to sell to people who needs some kind of cellular implants. It's all a dirty business.

    As regards Dr Albino, I agree that he was very naive and imprudent to say that, but many people do not know that he has recovered 40.000 people from malnutrition and disease, and this why the government helps him. Of course, he is Catholic, and Catholicism is a BIG TARGET to all enemies of this religion.

    A big target is easy to hit, of course.

    Another issue to remark is that against abortion is not only a concern of Cathoics. Protestants are doing the same. They made a great gathering yesterday Saturday August 4th.

    It sounds as if Dr. Albino does very admirable work for malnourished people. He was just an unfortunate choice to speak outside his area of knowledge. If he wasn’t being deliberately misleading, he could perhaps benefit from a rudimentary sex education class.


    Reading that 40% of Argentine pregnancies end in abortion (and I have only the newspaper account as the source of that number, because I can’t find any official government figures — do such figures exist?), I decided to find out about the situation in the US, now that abortion has been legal for 45 years.


    According to the Guttmacher Institute, 19 percent of pregnancies ended in abortion in 2014, the most recent year for which statistics are easily available. This is still, sadly, a large number, but less than half the rate quoted for Argentina.


    If Argentina’s quoted 40% rate is at all close to reality, it suggests that abortion is being used instead of birth control. Is birth control so difficult to obtain, or could this be the result of lack of education?

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    Quote from Rice

    It sounds as if Dr. Albino does very admirable work for malnourished people. He was just an unfortunate choice to speak outside his area of knowledge. If he wasn’t being deliberately misleading, he could perhaps benefit from a rudimentary sex education class.

    He is a Pediatrician. Could you believe? =O


    Science and religion do not go hand in hand. It is for me inconceivable that a man of science could twist science to his religious belief and liking, and to be handed a microphone in public to utter such gibberish.

    The admission ticket to science is ' you will believe theories that have been proven by several people in independent experiment, peer-reviewed, and are repeatable by anyone, anywhere'.

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    Quote from Rice

    If Argentina’s quoted 40% rate is at all close to reality, it suggests that abortion is being used instead of birth control. Is birth control so difficult to obtain, or could this be the result of lack of education?

    There is a OTC called 'day-after pill' which is not, in fact, an abortion pill so to speak, but rather an emergency contraceptive. It contains levonorgestrel. It just alter the hormonal balance to prevent fecundation. However, if fecundation has already happened, it won't hurt the fertilized egg and the pregnancy will continue as if nothing.


    There is no actual abortion pill like the RU-486 (Mifepristona).

    I insist that the 500.000 abortions in Argentina is a imagined number, not prooved by any statistics. The same Minister of Heath, Dr Rubinstein, recognized that in the last year there was only approximately 35 deaths of women by ill.practiced abortion. That means a ratio of 0,009 % of deaths regarding the alleged numer of abortion. That is a very, very low ratio. Are the abortist doctors here so efficient and well prepared to be so good?


    I think that the 500.000 abortion number is much alike the 30.000 "desaparecidos" in Argentina-

    The number of the desaparecidos was only 8500, following the Commission which produced the "Nunca más" (Never more) document. And I assume that between those 8500, are many still living exiled in Europe. Theur relatives got an indemnity of about U$S 250.000 per person.


    Be aware that this discussion in fueled by many strong interests which want to promote and legalize the massacre of many human beings.And to lie is a very efficient weapon, as Dr Goebbels did in Germany.

    Quote from Rice

    What, politicians lie? I am shocked, I tell you, SHOCKED!

    Those who lies are not only the politicians precisely. It is all the lobby pro abortion that lies. And not only from Argentina. The hungarian magnate George Soros is behind all this move.

    With his millions of dollars, he can twist the will of our mainly weak and corrupt politicians, that can change his vote for an everlasting future plenty of richness. Remember that we are in Latin America. Honesty and morals are not common here. There are no heroes which could resist the temptation.

    The culture of death is advancing. The next step will be the mandatory euthanasia for elder people which cannot be sustained to their pensions system.

    This world was foreseen by two English writers: Aldous Huxley (A Brave New World) and George Orwell (1984). I have read both books in my youth and at that time their predictions seemed Science fiction. Unfortunately, they are "ad Portas" (latin from being the enemy at the gates of Rome.

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    This article on Perfil says between 370,000 and 500,000 abortions per year:

    Data reliability in Argentina has always been an issue, and we have to thank you know who for that. Anyway, it is not a matter of legalizing something because there is a high number of people doing something anyway.


    I am pro-choice, and I believe a non-religious State cannot use the religious argument. They can use the bioethical one, but so they have to use a scientific approach and not poach the numbers and facts to their liking like Dr. Albino.


    In a country with such a high degree of illiteracy as Argentina, if someone gives false data on the media, this is the only source of information for most of the population. I don't believe people will look up official statistics to know how things really are. And this includes both pro-abortionist and pro-lifers.

    In general (not just about this issue), I am under the impressions that Argentinians 'marry' a political party and agree with whatever gibberish they say, no matter what.


    This is one of the reason why I won't give free classes in the so called 'cultural centers', they are always too politicized. If it is cultural, I don't want to see no Maldonado face, no green handkerchiefs, no union signs posted on the walls. It makes skin itches!

    If we are going to be realist, murder and robbery will always exist. so following this logic, we must legalize it and allow it to be made officially.

    As regards women, they have to accept their condition and knowing that what they have in their wombs is not exactly a part of them. It is another human being. Their duty is to protect and nourish this being. And also remember that the 50 % of their genetics features are not from the woman; some man is involved, as I presume. I never see an abortion law which asks the father of the unborn his opinion. Seems to be infair, after all.

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    Quote from Carlos

    If we are going to be realist, murder and robbery will always exist. so following this logic, we must legalize it and allow it to be made officially.

    As regards women, they have to accept their condition and knowing that what they have in their wombs is not exactly a part of them. It is another human being. Their duty is to protect and nourish this being. And also remember that the 50 % of their genetics features are not from the woman; some man is involved, as I presume. I never see an abortion law which asks the father of the unborn his opinion. Seems to be infair, after all.

    In a healthy situation the father would have an opinion and it would be taken into account. However, if a woman is raped she has every right to decide what to do and let's face it, she's not going to consult the rapist.

    Mr Splinter: you wrote:

    In a healthy situation the father would have an opinion and it would be taken into account. However, if a woman is raped she has every right to decide what to do and let's face it, she's not going to consult the rapist.


    The present Argentine Law of 1921 is actually including this exception, therefore we are sharing the same opinion.

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    We are approaching midnight and the debate is still going strong, but the majority of Senators say they will vote against the change of the current law. After midnight the votes will be cast.


    Many international people have expressed their support to the proposed change to legalize abortion in Argentina, like actresses Felicity Huffman and Anjelica Houston.

    The NYT published an entire green page, financed by Amnesty International, on this day which could have been historical, but it will be another missed chance for Argentina to move forwards instead.


    Dj_JOWUX0AA2JxV.jpg


    Poor women in Argentina have little to no sexual education, mostly because of poverty and the Catholic Church being responsible of their education.

    They are beaten and killed by current and former partner because they get pregnant. Many of the women remembered in Argentina by the #niunamenos movement are victim of misogyny and family abuse.


    Giving women a choice could have improved things for many women in Argentina. Yet, Argentina chose to turn their face away from the problem.



    But maybe Argentines aren't ready to step into the first world and are feeling cozy in their underdeveloped Latin American side they despise most of the time (how convenient!).


    A doctor in La Rioja tweeted he will be performing abortions with no anesthesia so that the woman will suffer every bit of it. He was suspended and later resumed working at the same hospital.

    Even the current Vice-President of Argentina, Mrs. Michetti, said that if it was up to her, abortion shouldn't be allowed not even in the current cases considered by the law (rape and health risk for the mother). In a philosophical sense, I can see her point: you are killing a fetus in either case.

    But at least it recognizes some degree of rights to the pregnant woman (mental harm from rape and physical harm in case of health risk). But who get to tell what kind of psychological harm could a pregnancy do on a mother?


    Most people seem to picture as abortionist women as spoiled and lustful women getting drunk and throwing themselves to men, hence they should be punished for their careless behavior, which is morally reprehensible. Whereas in reality we should picture poor, illiterate women who are getting pregnant without knowing why and how, getting caught in a spiral of poverty they cannot escape.


    And 8 Provinces (Catamarca, Corrientes, Formosa, Mendoza, San Juan, San Luis, Santiago del Estero & Tucumán) have never took the necessary steps to implement abortion in their Province -- not even where it is currently allowed by the national law, effectively preventing that their women get an abortion. Another case were the will of those in charge are condemning the people to follow their often not-so-enlightened vision.


    Interviews to raped women have also shown that judges are delaying approval of their abortion and that doctors and nurses at the hospital are treating them as criminals, likely not providing them the best care available.


    Nobody seems to pay attention to the fact that the most developed countries have legal and voluntary abortion, whereas the poorest and underdeveloped countries do not. There is money in poverty, much more than in abortion.

    • Official Post

    Another missed chance for the country in my opinion, to be able to move forward giving rights to women so that they and they alone can decide.

    I have a real problem reconciling several things here - the meddling of the church that tries and always fails to live in the real world ( condoms, divorce and abortion), the rights of LGBTs which was pretty much rubber stamped anyway and is, in my opinion a far less important issue, and the rights of women in general in this country in terms of domestic violence and people trafficking.

    Much is spouted by so many and in so many marches by women's rights campaigners and I'm sure their voices are heard, but clearly not by enough people.

    Abortion is not a religious issue, even if the church is seen as a kind of brake on us mere mortals' excesses.

    Having said all that, the government has said that it aims to change the penal code in relation to abortion and next week will put that to congress, this taking a little of the sting out of last night's decision.

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    The Senate is mostly made of elder men, and what was said yesterday in the Senate was really something you would have expected to hear 50 years ago. This article in LN shows that the elder the Senators, the more they are against abortion.

    Cristina voted in favor of abortion. Who would have said!


    I think that Senators from the Provinces have a huge interest in increasing their (poor) population to receive money from the Central Government, not to mention the various Catholic associations. The very Dr. Albino's CONIN (against children hunger) receives funding from the government, so he has all the interest of keeping his business alive.


    Money from the Central Government that then get steered toward their own interests, of course, either in the form of giving works to their companies or directly in their pockets. The first word popping to my mind is Milagro Sala. But for one Sala there are hundreds that will never get discovered.


    Argentina seems to ignore that most developed countries have legal abortion in place. Most women in Argentina are living in another era.